Paying for Healthcare in Retirement

You can have all the money in the world in retirement. But if you don’t have your health… well, you really can’t enjoy it. Part of that, says Bill Kepper, a physician for 40+ years, is being a good patient throughout your life, following doctor’s orders. 

But as important is making sure you can get the medications, procedures, and other things you need as you get older… while you’re depending on your retirement income and retirement accounts to pay for it.

Bill shares his thoughts on the healthcare system and how to best take care of yourself.

Listen in to discover:

  • Habits you can adopt now for better long-term health

  • The importance of staying active – physically and mentally

  • Fitness and nutrition habits anybody can adopt

  • Tips for adjusting to more time at home in retirement

  • And more

Listen now…

Episode Transcript:

John Curry: Hi, this is John Curry. Welcome to our podcast today. I'm sitting across the table here with my good friend and personal physician Bill Kepper. Bill, thank you for joining us today.

Bill Kepper: A pleasure to be here.

John Curry: I have known you for over 40 years, you've been my personal physician all these years. My wife introduced us, in fact, before we ever got married, and we started working with you.

Bill Kepper: And you've been a client of mine for I don't know how long, maybe the same length of time.

John Curry: So, we have a professional relationship, but I have to tell you, folks, we have a personal relationship, 'cause I consider Dr. Bill Kepper to be not only a great physician, but a good friend, a counselor, and a good confident. Bill, what I want to do today is focus on a theme called Health and Wealth. People are so worried about their money, worried about the stock market, do they take their money away, how do I save more money, financial advisors tell them maximize your 401k. My position is, after 43 years of doing this, it's nice to have some wealth, but I'm seeing a lot of clients who don't have good health when they retire. They're not gonna get to enjoy that money very long. So, I want us to talk a little bit about health issues, but I would like you to start ... Please, just tell us your background and why in the world you decided to become a medical doctor.

Bill Kepper: Well, I grew up in the suburbs of New Orleans out by Lake Pontchartrain in a family of three, being the caboose in that family. Mom and Dad, attorney dad and mom somewhat of a local socialite with all of her old Newcomb buddy friends and housewife homemaker. She had joined lots of different clubs. We enjoyed a fairly idyllic lifestyle in a brick, one story, three bedroom house, and had family same last name in New Orleans saying my mom was a Yankee from Shreveport, Louisiana.

John Curry: A Yankee, huh?

Bill Kepper: So, after having gone through high school at a private school in New Orleans called [French 00:02:16], where I was forced to learn Latin and French, decided to go into premed curriculum at LSU. So, I went north for college, north and a little bit west. Met my wife on a blind date, first football game blind date between fraternity and sorority in 1968 on October 5th, did not know she was gonna be my wife, but I was hoping from that day on that that might happen.

John Curry: Wow, so you knew right away.

Bill Kepper: Well, she liked me and that was kind of unusual. I was a bit of a nerd back then. I might still be a bit of a nerd, but nobody has the guts to tell me.

John Curry: There afraid you might give them the wrong prescription.

Bill Kepper: Or the wrong exam.

John Curry: That's funny, that's funny. Talk a little bit about your experience as a medical doctor. You've been practicing how long? Forty years, forty-two?

Bill Kepper: Well, it depends on whether you count what I did in residency in 1976, started the residency program, got my Florida license a year after my first GGY1, post graduate year one. So, I started practicing in '77 with a license, but '79 had my own private practice. That continued to thrive for a long period of years such that in the early '90s, mid '90s, we decided to band together against the powers of the hospitals and the insurance companies to form an organization called Tallahassee Primary Care Associates, primarily family doctors and pediatricians. We later added specialists to our group. I enjoyed being a member of that organization up until 2014, when I retired to go from that organization to go work at Southwood with Hospital Corporation of America, [inaudible 00:04:18] Medical Clinic.

John Curry: And now you're fully retired.

Bill Kepper: Fully retired as of August 31st.

John Curry: August 31st just last year.

Bill Kepper: Last year.

John Curry: So, we'll come back around to the healthcare issues in a moment, but from your perspective of being [inaudible 00:04:34], I've known you personally all these years. You've worked very hard, you didn't just spend five minutes with a patient and run them out, you worked long hours, you loved what you did for a living, it wasn't just work for you, it was a calling.

Bill Kepper: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

John Curry: How have you adjusted to this thing called retirement?

Bill Kepper: It's interesting because I could honestly say that the first couple of months of retirement felt like an extended vacation. Hunting season ensued, as it usually does in the wintertime, and I enjoyed spending more time in the woods than I had been able to for the last several years. But now it's seeming like a little bit of planning on my part for activity would be helpful, though I do have to recognize those plans are subject to change based on still being married to the sweetheart I met in 1968.

John Curry: So, what are you trying to say, that Sharon has her own views about what to do?

Bill Kepper: Sharon has her schedule about what she wants to do, and I should understand that I will be needing to work around that schedule.

John Curry: So, it sounds to me like that you went from having one boss on the work side, to now you've got a full-time boss on the home front.

Bill Kepper: Well, yeah, and I've always had a full-time boss on the home front. I just wasn't home as often as I am now.

John Curry: Let's talk about that for a second. Do you find, or did you find initially anyway, that it took some adjusting because you did work such long hours and then finally you're at home? Did you find there was any type of stress going on there?

Bill Kepper: Well, it was interesting because about the same time I was retiring I was seeing my pulmonologist, who was confirming the fears that many of my primary care doctor and cardiologists thought I might have developed sleep apnea. So, the adjustment was getting used to sleep apnea machine, CPAP, AutoPap, which was not at all difficult, and I began sleeping much better, dreaming really interesting dreams and then waking up to the same disappointed every day is the same day.

John Curry: That sounds like that movie "Groundhog Day" just a little bit in there to me. What are some of the issues that you noticed as a doctor treating your patients that prevented people from truly enjoying their day to day life and maybe even would hurt them going into retirement years?

Bill Kepper: Well, over the years ... and I think I lived through a fairly marvelous period of innovation in medicine. When I first started in medicine there was very few open heart surgeries being done in only certain selective centers in the world, the Charity Hospital associated with Tulane Med School, they had not done any coronary bypass surgeries while I was in med school there. They were doing them down the road at [inaudible 00:07:37] Clinic, but they were not doing them at Charity Hospital. Valvular surgeries were being done, you know, on a regular basis, but Clinic and some of the folks there were majorly involved in helping to restore lives after coronary artery disease happened. 

We went through a period where we evolved a whole lot of very effective treatments for hypertension, so I saw a reduction significantly in the people who were under medical care not getting nearly as many strokes as they had been getting percentage wise, not having the younger age nearly as often that would take people out of a period of vitality or early retirement. 

Then coronary artery disease started taking a significant hit with good mediations to adequately control the cholesterol levels. This presupposes the patients would actually go to the doctor, get diagnosed, take the medication, and continue to take the medication if they were gonna get the benefits of the changes in medicine during that time.

John Curry: Well, I can speak to that personally because I had open heart surgery, triple bypass to be exact, in July, July 10, 2008. I can't remember how many times I complained about the medications that you had me taking, and you explained to me in a very nice matter, "Look, these are important for these reasons. You can ...", 'cause I started working on my diet and my exercise and started taking these things seriously. But I can see where it would be very easy once you've made improvements to think, I don't need that medication anymore. 'Cause I'm the kind of person I don't even take an aspirin.

Bill Kepper: But, John, you're the kind of person who will get 100%, 110% into a self rehab program and think that's gonna solve the problem.

John Curry: True.

Bill Kepper: Sometimes it does.

John Curry: Well, it's made a big difference.

Bill Kepper: It's made percentages of difference for you, but the difference is you don't have to compartmentalize one or the other. You can combine both.

John Curry: Absolutely, and that was the take away for me, that you need to do everything you can do for yourself, eating right, exercise, relaxing, not being so stressed out, but take advantage of modern technology and modern, especially medical technology, and use the pills and the treatments that are available to improve yourself. That's really what you just described, isn't it, is taking advantage of the technology?

Bill Kepper: Yeah, if in doing so you make your doctor look good.

John Curry: I like that, especially if you follow directions, right?

Bill Kepper: You're still here.

John Curry: That's right. I'm still here, still here. Let's talk a little bit about the future of healthcare in our country. People are concerned about that. The costs are going up and up. All of the stuff about so called Obamacare, the Affordable Care Act, some people love it, some hate it. To the extent you're willing to talk about your professional [inaudible 00:10:41] in this sense, how do you feel about it? I mean, is it good care, bad care, as a whole? What's your view as a retired physician?

Bill Kepper: Well, let me preface what I'm gonna say or maybe change the response a little bit. Our conversations recently have been more not about the effectiveness or lack of effectiveness in healthcare but the availability of health care and the financing of healthcare.

John Curry: Okay.

Bill Kepper: When people start getting on TV and start talking about healthcare, they're talking about how to pay for it. Who's gonna have access to it, and who's gonna pay for those folks' access to it? So, during the Obamacare origination and thought process, that's what the whole question was to be resolved. I think that medical care as far as capacity to develop new and novel therapies has gone on pretty much unabated. Every one of those has come out extraordinarily more expensive than we hoped they would, and they stay expensive because bit pharma requires a whole lot of money to run its engine. Is big pharma our friend? The answer is, I think, on an individual basis big pharma is our friend, but on the standpoint of what big pharma has done to our economy, it has separated us into a group of haves and have nots. I have an insurance policy that will allow me to pay for any $300 dollar a month medication, or I don't have an insurance policy that will allow me to pay for a $300 dollar a month medication. I understand that creates sometimes vital differences in outcomes.

John Curry: Yes. You said something very interesting there that caught my ear. So, the quality of the care is there, that's not really a question I don't think in this country 'cause the people in your profession are caring individuals. So, it comes down to affordability: Can I afford the care while I'm working, but especially is causing a lot of angst when people retire. I'll tell you, when we're meeting with clients either in number one or two, sometime they'll switch the order, is: I'm worried about cost of healthcare, and I'm worried about running out of money, in other words losing income, and they'll flip flop. Some will be number one, some will be number two. But we're seeing that those are the primary concerns. How do I pay for my health insurance in retirement, my healthcare, rather, and will I run out of money. Will I spend all the money I have in my retirement accounts and be broke?

Bill Kepper: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

John Curry: And you look at that, and as a retirement planner, we have to help find ways so people can finance that care. It's becoming more and more difficult. We see people, Bill, who are paying more for prescriptions each month out of pocket than they paid for a mortgage payment. That's insane.

Bill Kepper: Yeah.

John Curry: I don't know what the answer is. I'm certainly not a politician, so I don't know what the answer is. I'm not an economist, but I look at that and as a planner I don't want to just talk about people investing money or having life insurance. How can I help them have a better quality of life today while they're working, but especially in retirement? Because this is something I've been doing for 43 years, I hope to do it for another 20 or 30, well long as I live. I keep telling people I'm gonna be like George Burns and live to be 100 years old and keep on working, but on my terms. Don't get me wrong. I don't want to work every day, and I don't work every day, but I want to have fun.

Bill Kepper: Sure, Gracie.

John Curry: Okay. I don't think he's buying that. Okay. Talk a little bit about the biggest issues you think hurt us from the standpoint of enjoying our life. Is it high blood pressure? Hypertension? What are the things that you think, based on what you've experienced, are the things that are getting to us?

Bill Kepper: I think probably overcommitment to things that may or may not have value is the biggest stuff that gets to us. As far as healthcare concerns, you know, we've done a pretty good job of reducing stroke, we've done a fair job of reducing cardiovascular disease in general in those people who are under treatment. The hypertension has reduced the likelihood of rupture of aneurysms as well as having blockages in major arteries that supply organs that we cannot afford to damage without loss of capacity. So, you know, that's pretty good. We're still having the major battle with trying to find out where the genesis of cancer is and how we can do something to stop that in its tracks before it gets started, or preferably early recognition and effective treatment for that. A lot of cancer remedies are still pretty hard to deal with and leave us with loss of function at times.

John Curry: What are the things you think we should be doing as individuals to give ourselves the best chance of having a long life?

Bill Kepper: Wear your seatbelt.

John Curry: Okay.

Bill Kepper: Quit smoking.

John Curry: Okay. I wasn't expecting those.

Bill Kepper: Well, people die of those things.

John Curry: Yeah.

Bill Kepper: Avoid large crowds of people during the wintertime, so you don't get the flu. Airports.

John Curry: Stay away.

Bill Kepper: Stay away or bring your hand cleanser or wear gloves, you know, the types of things that we can do for preventive. Gone are the days, I guess, hopefully, where we worry about on a daily basis thermonuclear attack. Still remember diving underneath desks, and I realize that was a ridiculous posture to die in.

John Curry: Yes, I remember that.

Bill Kepper: Yeah, the Cuban Missile Crisis was ... I mean, not as big in New Orleans as it was in Florida, but it was big enough to make an impact on us. But I think, you know, living with consistency in your life habits, not jumping after everything that's on certain TV shows that may be or may be not run by a knowledgeable doctor.

John Curry: Talk a little bit about the things that we can do from a fitness and nutrition focus. Is there too much emphasis on that, or is it truly just the way I am is the way God made me?

Bill Kepper: Okay, so you're asking me to say, what should I do not what do I do?

John Curry: Okay, well, your words not mine.

Bill Kepper: Having been able to get off the rat race, the treadmill of work, I've been able to enjoy much more recreational time. I'm the type of person that will not go to a gym and exercise, 'cause that looks like work. But I will go out and walk the dog. I will go out and decide to park a little bit farther away from the hunting stand, so that I get to carry my equipment closer and maybe increase my chance of being successful. I will be that person who doesn't mind the fact that this self propelled portion of my old lawn mower is broken, so I have to actually push the thing, because I think there's value in that. So, getting physical activity rather than exercise, I like to say, because to me it makes more sense. It's getting closer to that time of the year where you can smell the cut grass. When I finish cutting my half acre yard, which has got a house on it so it's not a whole half acre, it gives me a sense of accomplishment to know I've done something, in a way my own little cardiac stress test to prove that I can still have the capacity to enjoy life. I enjoy fishing. I'd rather fish from a kayak than I would a sailboat, 'cause it's too much work to sail a boat. It's more efficient from a kayak.

John Curry: I love my kayak.

Bill Kepper: Plus there's some exercise associated with that, as long as you don't hurt your back by getting off the top of your care.

John Curry: Right.

Bill Kepper: But keeping yourself reasonably trim and fit is good things, and some centering type of things where you expand your knowledge as well as your capacity, physical capacity, read a good book, find something worthwhile to do for the sake of others, and volunteerism, those sorts of things add value and I think years to life. Many, many years ago I was reading in what we call a throw away journal, which is one that has more drug adds and fewer well thought out articles, but there was an article written about the benefits of jogging. This person who was in Scandinavia somewhere had done this extensive study about how much longer people live if they have the active lifestyle of running on a regular basis. It was roughly equivalent to the amount of time they spent running. So, I got from that, if you like to run, go. You'll live longer doing what you like to do. If you find it onerous, then you'll live longer doing something onerous. So, a lot of my choices are with activity other than exercise, doing something I enjoy doing.

John Curry: I agree totally. I happen to go to the gym three days a week, but I enjoy walking. I take long walks, I mean sometimes like an hour. Go the park, enjoy being outside. Sometimes at hunting camp, even during non hunting season go out there and just walk.

Bill Kepper: That's the best time to get out and walk, non hunting season.

John Curry: That's right, otherwise you might get shot. Look, there's a big old deer. Let's get him. But what it does for me, it not only gives me the physical activity, but it also works on the brain, letting the brain decompress some. I'm reading more and more things that say that the key to having an active life in retirement, in your 70s, 80s, and 90s ... Our oldest client is 100 years old, excuse me just turned 101 I think. She's very alert, she reads, she studies. So, let's talk a little bit about the importance of exercising the brain, too, not just the body. What does medical science tell us about that?

Bill Kepper: Medical science would say that that's one of the better things you can do to prevent Alzheimer's, is stay engaged in problem solving types of activities, puzzles, those sorts of things, reading about new idea, perhaps even learning a foreign language, though I don't know that it's necessary now that I've gotten English and Redneck and Cajun and all those things throw at me, along with a smattering of French. But to me-

John Curry: Ha, Redneck.

Bill Kepper: ... the key issue is, with me and my wife, my wife will often ask me what I'm thinking, and I'll often not be aware that I'm thinking about anything in particular, but I'm just you know letting my mind wander when I'm out there in the woods or doing something like that. I find it very beneficial for me and hopefully for others that at times when I catch myself doing that, I say, how could I better be putting my mind to use? I will spend some time in prayer. To me, that's centering because it helps me to connect with the God who I think created me, and the God who I think has called me to come live with Him for eternity.

John Curry: Very good. Talk a little bit about some of the things that you've done, since you brought up your faith there. You have done a lot of work over the years on different missions. I know one of those was a trip to Haiti. Would you talk a little bit about what you've done as far as ... I know, sometimes you don't like talking about it, but to the extent that you're willing to share, just a little bit of some of the things you've done, because there's more to life than just work, work, work.

Bill Kepper: Well, some of the best part of work ... and John you may recognize this  too because you've been involved in volunteerism with honor flights and that sort of stuff ... is what you give of your capacity to people who can't possibly repay you.

John Curry: Yes.

Bill Kepper: So, what Haiti, which is one of the times I reflect back most to some of the original 9/11, I started the first day at short term mission project in Haiti at a village I had been to several times previously.

John Curry: I never knew that. So you were there when the attack occurred?

Bill Kepper: Yeah. Somewhere around 10:00 in the morning, we were in the midst of seeing our 20 or 30th patient in the clinic building, and our pastor, who came by with new technology for us at the time, cell phone, said that the United States was under attack. Of course, incredulity was the first emotion I had. "No, there's no way. United States couldn't be under attack. We've got too many satellites, we've got too many things covered." The attack came from within.

John Curry: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Bill Kepper: We found out as much as we could out there, and so I gathered the people together who were volunteers at the clinic. We had nurses and lab techs and just plain volunteers to help us with the pharmacy and that sort of stuff. I don't remember which other doctor was there. I said, "Guys, we have just heard some terrible news about the United States under attack. We won't be able to find out more about that till we get back to our compound tonight where we can turn on cable news network and see more about it. We've got a clinic to run. So, let's have a period of prayer and reflection on what might be going on for our loved ones back home in the United States, knowing that we're here for a purpose and reason, and we need to accomplish that purpose and reason." 

Turned out the end of the week, after a lot of prayer and my concern that I might have to buy a Haitian schooner that they use for bringing food substances, et cetera, from the north part of the country down to the south, and back and navigate my way back to the United States, we were able to board an airplane and take our trip back a few hours too late to make [inaudible 00:25:35], but I think we were one of the first flights into Miami that Sunday afternoon, to come back to the United States. That was a weird time to be in Haiti, when all of this stuff was going down and all the airplanes were shut down and that sort of stuff. Didn't stop me from going. It just made me think about, you know, who's in charge and who has to respond to that person in charge, with faith, in order to be able to continue to do what you do. 

You know, the first time I went to Haiti I was afraid that I might not come back. That fear had disappeared by the time that 9/11 happened, but it came back pretty quick. And as being responsible for the care of the other people that I went, I didn't share that responsibility by myself. Somebody else was guiding the trip, too, and that person was the one that compelled me to go to begin with.

John Curry: What are you doing now in retirement or what will you be doing since you have all the extra time on your hands? What does retirement look like going forward, say, just look out, say, five years?

Bill Kepper: I think I plan on traveling, putting some of that money that you helped me save up over the period of time to good use, and seeing part-

John Curry: Enjoy it while you can.

Bill Kepper: ... part of the world where, you know, I haven't seen both ... No, traveling our nation as well as maybe international travel. My wife had not ever flown before we got married, and we flew to Jamaica for our honeymoon, but she's flown since then. She doesn't mind the experience too much. We were fortunate to have a son who competed in international rowing and got to see parts of Europe and parts of Asia and South America as a part of following him around as crew parents. So, that was great for travel, but since he's retired from that we need to have our own impetus to get us out of Tallahassee and move out and see some things.

John Curry: Very good, very good. You mentioned hunting earlier. How important do you think it is when people come to this thing called retirement, that they have hobbies, interests, to keep them busy in retirement. Or have you been retired long enough yet to know?

Bill Kepper: I think it adds value to what you can do as having a set point in time where you're gonna go out and do something you enjoy. If you haven't figured out what you like yet, you need to start figuring that out so that you can say, "I might want to be working with stained glass." "I might want to, you know, take up golf." Oh, lord help you. If more people were satisfied with their golf score at the end of their golf game, I might have thought about taking it up, but they're a bunch of unhappy folks.

John Curry: Right, angry, and slapping a little ball around. I'm one of those.

Bill Kepper: As well as they wanted to do. I've got fishing and never brought home any fish, not very often but on occasion, but I still had a good time fishing. To me, hunting and fishing are those things. They add value because it gets you out of the rat race to a certain extent. Yes, it costs a little bit of money, but I think the money is well spent. I think you could buy fish almost as fresh as I get to bring home and cook them up and they might taste pretty much similar, but there is some degree of benefit. I don't know, maybe I'm going back to the caveman times, hunter/gatherer, taking home, bringing home at least the main course so you can enjoy your vegetables even more.

John Curry: Absolutely. I started deer hunting again this year with my brother, my son, and my grandson. I quit for years, wouldn't do it. I did it because of them. Some of the best time has been just sitting around the campfire, just grilling some meat on the grill, sometimes it was chilly, and just talking. Having a good time and just being with the family. I didn't care if I shot a deer or not. In fact, I had an opportunity to kill several, and I didn't even shoot one. Everybody else did. They said, "Why didn't you shoot a deer?" I said, "I was just enjoying sitting there and relaxing." Cold at times, but I had not done that in 10 years. I did other things, but to me it's gone back full circle to where I enjoy doing that, 'cause it gets me outside, like you said, walking to the stand, park the truck down the road, walk farther. I get my exercise, get outside closer to God. It's just great.

Bill Kepper: You even get to see the day begin or the day end-

John Curry: Or both.

Bill Kepper: ... from an elevated position. That's not a bad thing.

John Curry: I agree totally. I agree. But you're right, it's very therapeutic. We're getting close to the end here. To kind of wind down, what suggestions or advice would you offer to anyone who's listening to this from the standpoint of this theme about health and wealth. You're working so hard to make money, 'cause you've gotta have a job, pay the bills. You're trying to save for retirement. But, what advice would you offer to tie the importance of taking care of your health now and a plan of action at the end when you go into retirement, to be able to truly enjoy your wealth? What would you say?

Bill Kepper: Good question. We all know the story about pro football players who have extraordinarily good health through high school and college, maybe a few surgeries, do carpentry work on them, and yet because of the series of concussions that they might have had or something like that, don't get to experience a full senior life. I think it's thereby good to put on your helmet, even if you're not a football player, of protection, so when you ride a bike you wear a helmet. When you go rollerblading, maybe you wear all those guards that I had on when I fell down on Harriman Circle one day. I hurt my pride, but that was about it. Didn't put the roller blades back on either.

John Curry: I'm not going to, so you were braver than I am. I'm not going to put roller blades on my feet, or roller skates either.

Bill Kepper: I had a friend that did it, and he loved it. I thought, "Well, I'll see ..." You know this about guys. Guys will buy sporting equipment, which will then encourage them to use the sporting equipment 'cause they don't to pay for something and not use it, and then they go out and try the sport. You know, vis a vis all the people with the golf clubs. So, I think that, you know, there's a little bit of that in me.

But I think keeping yourself physically healthy is a lot easier than reclaiming health after you've already lost a crucial function. So, by being cautious and, like I said, use reason in which you try to do things. Don't go out and try to run a marathon without training for it. Don't necessarily think that everybody has to run a marathon. I remember in my running career, which I cut short on purpose sort of like Forrest Gump, but way before he did, I ran a 15k one time. I said, "That's pretty much what I want to do, is run a 15k." But I didn't want to run a second 15k, because I had other things to do.

John Curry: Right. But at least you tried it.

Bill Kepper: Yeah.

John Curry: That's a good place to come to a close here. How important is it to try new things instead of just saying, "Hey, this is the way it is. I'm not gonna change." 

Bill Kepper: Well, there is that ropes course down there at Tallahassee Museum. I've thought about going down there and trying that. 

John Curry: It is fun, I've done it.

Bill Kepper: Yeah, I know a person who was a principle in designing it and putting it up. That's Dr. Ben [inaudible 00:33:42] son, Lucas. Yeah, I'm gonna do that. But I think it's important to try new things to challenge yourself, not to get caught up in the humdrum of the usual and the always. Go somewhere that you are intrigued with that's not particularly dangerous. [inaudible 00:34:05] going to the Ozarks 'cause you've seen both other mountain ranges in the United States, but you haven't been to the Ozarks yet. You might find a diamond there, something like that.

John Curry: Very good. So, just get out and do something different.

Bill Kepper: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

John Curry: Do something different. Well, my friend, thank you so much for taking the time to share your stories. It's been a pleasure sitting here with you.

Bill Kepper: And likewise.

John Curry: Thanks, Bill.

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